Curse

JoDiamonds · Jul 31, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Presumably Elementalists get 20-25 new skills in Nightfall.

Elementalists are fine. Even if you merely do E/caster for the energy Storage.

Electric Sky · Jul 31, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

*sigh* why does everyone asume PvE eles are ALWAYS Nukers ?

Spiker Eles DO exist in both PvE and PvP !!

Glasswalker · Jul 31, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I played a Dervish during my "copious" spare time this weekend, and somehow, I came up with a different perspective on the subject of Enchantment removal than everybody who's posted here so far.

Did anyone try removing an Enchantment on a Dervish? Did it get you very far? I didn't think so. Now, since removing an enchantment can now hurt you, or benifit your opponent more than you'd care to, doesn't that mean that players will be more selective in using them? Give the game a couple of weeks post-release, and I think the answer will be yes.

I would be willing to bet that in the upcoming chapter, there will be some defense for E's against Enchantment stripping. As has been stated, that will only benifit PvP players who purchase the new chapter (My answer: buy the new chapter). Is it possible that there is another secondary that could benifit Elementalists aside from /Me or /Mo? Is it heretical to suggest that not every class needs to contain all of the cornerstones of character creation (damage dealing, damage mitigation, hex/condition removal, self-healing and energy management, +) since we do in fact get 2 to play with?

The Dervish will be altered to protect the balance, and skillsets that were exploited will be changed to make that more difficult, but I don't think your basic issues will go away entirely. The next beta event will be more telling I am sure, as existing classes get the skills that will help them deal with the Dervish.

I see a lot of postings (as I have ever since balance was first altered in this game) that seem to hinge around one principle: "I've been running this, and I don't want to ever change it, but now it doesn't work so well". This is not intended as flame-bait, but you guys are kind of stuck in your ways. When knights first encountered the Welsh Longbow, the rules of battle changed forever, but there were still mounted cavalry through WWI, so they were definitely not obsolete.

The Dervish is here my friends, long live the Dervish. Evolve or die.
Now let's post some Dervish killers. Ranged attacks anyone? Hex based snares? (Oh, the E's get those?

)

CKaz · Jul 31, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I thought this thread was simply going to get at how much more damage the Derv does casting spells lol. And its even deeper than that, besides the fact Dervs are much better PBAOE...

There's less and less a role for my first character which I had a lot of fun with PvE and PvP. So many new tools for other classes in chp2, few for the ele, and more and more its obvious the energy storage primary isnt comparing to helping them compete in pvp - damage spike has been truly contained and in [pvp or LONG pve] battles that last their DPS can't be sustained.

Honestly enchantment hate didnt worry me so much - quite frankly eles aren't a hot target. I think every class has to take notice of these new ones, particularly the Dervish - as is it's silly good (I'd say absurdly), even w/o CoP.

CKaz · Jul 31, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

The Dervish is here my friends, long live the Dervish. Evolve or die.
Now let's post some Dervish killers. Ranged attacks anyone? Hex based snares? (Oh, the E's get those?

)

Ah see you didnt play long enough. Somehow infact you managed to miss all those items that remove hexes and conditions for Dervs, and you totally ignored the D/Mo CoP carnage that does both in one fell big swoop.

Actually my 'byline' would be 'Balance or Next Game'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Presumably Elementalists get 20-25 new skills in Nightfall.

Elementalists are fine. Even if you merely do E/caster for the energy Storage.

They're simple utility at best in PvP. Any class is 'fine' in PvE (well outside of Assassins who haven't figured that class out yet). Energy Storage is a bit of a dinosaur. It helps up front but does nothing for sustainability. 3 out of the 4 new classes got energy built into their primaries, and the Derv got health built in as well. Crazy huh? Think about Ether Renewal in all of its eliteness and lasting 7 seconds, and reflect on what a Dervish can do with their AoE bombs and conditions on the way out while they strip themselves for energy and health.

Yeah it'll be interesting to see the new skills, but honestly how many in chp2 really helped?
Most of it will probably be in an effort to remotely handle/attempt to survive the Dervish and Paragon.

Wyldchild777 · Jul 31, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Greetings,

I have to agree with the hate that eles are going to get in regards to their enchants. There are only a (slim) few enchants that eles have that are worth running. IMO, those are the attunements and (possibly) aura of restoration. And, those have such a recycle time as to make stripping of them hurt significantly.

On another note, just imagine how monks are going to feel? For example, just think about the protection monk. Any kind of protection build I've seen relies on enchants to be functional, much less effective.

I also agree that the entire skill set for eles needs to be revisited. It has been proven by those more knowledgeable than me (Ensign in particular I believe) that the entire damaging style of elementalist pales in comparision to other classes. The example I remember is that a warrior with a sword or axe and an empty skill bar will keep up with, or outpace, a damaging ele with a full skillbar. That comparison was made, however, before Factions, so I don't know if it still applies.

Elementalists have been more-or-less relegated to a support role, like earth wards/air blinds/water snares and such, not to mention those who take eles for just the high energy levels (E/Mo heal party spamming). In many peoples minds, mine included, that just doesn't fit with what an elementalist should be. They should be the kings of high, but not necessarily sustainable, damage. But, with the current setup, elementalists can't even claim that title.

Merry meet, merry met, merry meet again,
Wyldchild777

Glasswalker · Jul 31, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

Ah see you didnt play long enough. Somehow infact you managed to miss all those items that remove hexes and conditions for Dervs, and you totally ignored the D/Mo CoP carnage that does both in one fell big swoop.

Actually, I theorized about the CoP the moment the description came out, and there are posts around here to show it. But I also suggest to remove their enchantments before they can use CoP to remove hexes. Follow up a Desecrate with a Rend (No enchantments=no effect from CoP). You do damage, and remove enchantments. This is also not a build focussed on Dervishes. This works for other professions although against Monks, it hurts.

Now, do you really think the Dervish is going to use an Enchantment, then CoP with no one nearby, just to remove Mind Freeze? I've got a shiny nickle says they won't.

The point of what I was saying is that if you do this at a distance, you remove a lot of their effectiveness, I.E. PBAOE.

And you did not address my point about the effect Enchantment Removal Love is adding to this game. Don't make me come up with an E/D build to kick your butt with. Ew. ED.

Trylo · Jul 31, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

my point with the bm is that there is no reasonable way to stop it, either waste energy on _a pet_ or ignore it. My pet does a resonable 75ish to 60AL, giving me energy and adding to the spike/attack. around 45 to warriors. But you cannot strip a pet, you can blind him, but thats about it. It was my own example on how to get energy without enchantments. not exactly a viable choice i know.

*i havent expiramented much with mirror of ice, but it seemed in the description it would do all those things, and for the time i used it, it seemed like it did, but aparently im wrong, sorry about that. ANET really should change it, i mean its like ele vs ele... when does an ele ever attack an ele!? anyways, it should be a cover up ench, especially with the new skills nightfall brings us.

Xpl0iter · Aug 01, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

cover up enchantment? Another wasted slot u mean ? God, just quit it alread trylo.

JoDiamonds, you did not get many of us as what i could conclude from your post. You are giving eles a hope which relies on a whole new chapter? and based on just 25 new skills?

If i am getting you straight, are you trying to say that leaving that huge pile of my skills on ele is a waste of skill slot?
If so, what is the point of me makin an ele?

Overall, i am just amazed at anet paying attention to every thing, i bet they read it all, but yet they never made a significant change in ele skills or designed them to make them proper.

"A Damage dealing class" Is not what an ELe is considered to be any more.

Regardz

Hella Good · Aug 01, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

*reads through thread*

*classifies it under The Usual Ele Whine section*

*remembers to add an entry in the GW dictionary for the word "eledramatic" while in this section*

*pauses to think*

*"Eledramatic"- Behaving, showing, or characteristic of a tendency for complaining in an exaggeratedly theatrical manner about the GW profession Elementalist being underpowered.*

Phades · Aug 01, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Actually, I theorized about the CoP the moment the description came out, and there are posts around here to show it. But I also suggest to remove their enchantments before they can use CoP to remove hexes. Follow up a Desecrate with a Rend (No enchantments=no effect from CoP). You do damage, and remove enchantments.

You heal them for the amount of damage you inflicted with desecrate when you rend the enchantments, then they simply recast. This is assuming they havent already killed you in the time it takes to cast both spells. From max aggro range to the time they start doing damage to you, you have roughly 2s. This is assuming that a muddy terrain spirit is not already up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Now, do you really think the Dervish is going to use an Enchantment, then CoP with no one nearby, just to remove Mind Freeze? I've got a shiny nickle says they won't.

Considering that CoP is going to get changed given the way the dervish build worked and the fact that pious restoration will remove 2-3 hexes in exchange for 1 enchantment that recycles every 8s, i do not see alot going for your theorycraft here considering i attempted full blown ice builds durring (ice spikes, deep freeze, shard storm, ice prison, etc)the pvp event and found that they were completely ineffective due to the slow cast and recasting times of the ice hexes coupled with the high cost. Muddy terrain was far more effective, as was just spamming gale till their avatar wore off.

Trylo · Aug 01, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

cover up enchantment? Another wasted slot u mean ? God, just quit it alread trylo.

...

...

...

IF there was a cover up ench, this thread wouldnt be whining so much beacuse we could have elemental attunements, armor of earth, armor of mist!!!

...

The whole point of this post is HOW to stop ench. removing from being disatrous to eles, and i think i made my point.

Xpl0iter · Aug 01, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

u made ur point by adding ANOTHER cover up enchantment which yet makes an ele worst than what it already is, do u know Why ? BecaUSE You are left with pathetic 4 slots ( after 3 slots, + cover up enchantment ) . What you need to see is, a way so your energy storage attribute becomes better on its OWN, and not due to some pathetic enchantment coverup which requires energy and time to cast + a slot.
Man, You really need to pay attention to the OP's point of view. he is speaking of ele enchantment hate which makes ele even more gimped in nightfall, not to mention that the damage caused by eles to foes is still pathetic.

Can someone please explain the purpose of this thread to him?

Alathys Tylderaan · Aug 01, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

GVG, you are an ELE, you are mostly used for BlindFlash, or Wards, or HEAL area...

I stopped reading here.

Now, you're quite right, I was playing GvG as support.. what difference does that make? I was talking about using other e-management than enchant-based stuff.

Another thing, last time I checked (about a week or two ago), Fire eles are still great for PvE, you just have to think a little and not just drop all your AoEs in one place.

The 'wasted slots' comment, you only need to take one of the skills I suggested

TadaceAce · Aug 01, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Unless they get some good skills with nightfall, eles are dead. They will become useless and nonexistant. The only skills that would still make them useful would be blinding flash or ward against melee.

Heal Party: Mystic healing on a dervish with 6 enchants, as effective if not more.
Water Slows: Aura of Thorns w/ immediate ending for bleeding to cover it.
Windborne: Pious haste or whirling whatever anybody?
Extinguish: paragon has this one, forget the name but it makes everbody lose a condition when they use a skill. On a plus note, with more burning skills extinguish becomes a little better.
Ward against melee: Put a dervish in the middle of where you want the ward to be and get him spammign damage enchants, no wars are gonna frenzy making it as effective as a ward

Ok this post didn't come out 100% the way I expected it, they MIGHT get in there here and there if the dervish's get nerfed beyond comprehension. They really need to fix eles, they can't spike for the life of them with shelter (or even without it), they are one of the worst sustained damage in the game, and they die faster than anything else.

Hell the only true ele (as in nuking like I'm sure they are meant to do) was fast cast air, only because fast cast damn near doubled or more their sustained damage.

Oh and as far as the eles are good in pve.... according to pve players a wammo is good in pve.... If its a warrior, and its secondary is monk, get it outta my group. Hell I don't care what you are, if your secondary is monk, there is a 50% chance (in pve) your gonna be using mending and get outta my group!

PS: They could revert ether renewal to like... 15 seconds now, it can't be abused in ele smiting anymore because you nerfed basically every skill that build used. Yes you went overboard, draw got nerfed, renewal got nerfed, balt aura got nerfed, zealots got nerfed, one more got nerfed but its not coming to mind.

Xpl0iter · Aug 01, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Alathys Tylderaan, i see your point. The issue i have is this, an ele is only going to be used for a support role in gvgs, hell even in hoh most of the times. Most spike is done through necros, warriors, rangers, even mesmers and spike monks, i would like to see an ele spike in current gw. OB Flame? Bah, come on. i have spent a huge amount of time in another thread by comparing blood spike with ob flame spike, i will find it sometime if needed.

Eles are OK in pve, not good. The moment you pass Iron mines of Moladune, things go bad. in THK, you encounter one of the mursaat bosses, and the msx dmg i could ever put was a pathetic 21 or 25ish (can't recall) with rodgort's invocation.

um.... you do see the issue here right... armour... hint hint hint?

Ele is the profession which i have been working on since the day i started playing with ele, and i can tell you this from pve expereince ( and believe me, i can play almost any attribute class for ele there is for any kinda build i can hear or make quite effectively, been used to them ) ele has been pushed way too far. The moment i feel better about me being an ele at any point, a higher damage taking char just makes me feel useless. I have done FOC nuking too. beside mm, i can do alot of builds, not that i cant be an MM, i just hate being one. FOC nuking is greater by far once used properly. i did THK with my FOC nuker, and i was just looking at that same mursaat boss dying so fast that just made me drop my mouth wide open.

Mesmer esurge spike is not bad either.

Wasted slot comment was over attunements, and their cover up. TO be honest, to do continious spell casting, you do need both of those attunements. As what Evilsod once said in his post, once ele energy is down to zero, rest of the team members can go and make a cup of tea for their selves and come back while it recharges. If you mention glyphs, thats just to deal with heavy mana spells, not enough nukage. I mean:

Warrior (Strength) Need to see a week point here. Couldn't find any skill which makes their strength attribute need a skill to make it better. just need to drop points in it to use shield and stuff properly.
Monk (Divine) We all know how that works, right? Extra heal for divine points spent.
Necros (Soul Repeaing) Way better energy manegement. No skill is needed to make it better i assume.
Mesmer (Fast casting, i have yet to see a skill which is required to make it better. Any weakpoints of fast casting? i wonder if there is though
Rangers (Expertise) All attack skills, traps and preperations cost less energy. Let me put it this way, a 15 mana skill cost 5? 3 times the difference when jacked up the expertise to 16. 4 pips of energy regen, guess how fast that rolls for a small lookin mana bar? need any skill to make it better? the pips regen stays the same, about 2 energy a second ( if i understand how the energy rises. )
Ele (Energy Storage) HUGE MANA, for what ? same 4 pips of regen (while need atleast a few spells to get energy back, else it takes ages to gain the energy back... due to the spells which cost 15-25 on average). Why not give us atleast more pips of energy? i wonder if 6 pips are enough to be honest. Maybe i am wrong abou the regen thing here.

Back to enchantments.
Bah f*** the enchantments, who needs an ele any way now adays while others do a better job at it in high end stuff. beside wards, snares, blindflash bots and heal party ofcourse.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Lordhelmos · Aug 01, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

I have played an ele since beta.. seriously things have only gone from bad to worse with the class. The AoE nerf, the low armor, the lack of survival skills, being outdamaged by warriors, and becoming forced into being played as a utility class due to nerfage and flat out weakness. Sad to see once powerful casters functioning like this now. For the most party eles are forced to blind, ward, or flagrun. Out of all the classes, the elementalist has the LEAST survival time on the battle field. The continued breakdown of this class in the name of "balance" has been flatout rediculous. In my opinion elementalists should be dealing alot more pain than the currently are. The take too much and deal too little. Having a monk myself, the ele is the hardest to keep alive because hes almost 100% dependant on you. I struggled so hard and put over 1200 hours on my elementalist, but this nightfall event and now the complete destruction of enchantments that elementalists rely on to survive just threw the last wrench in the gears for me. Many elementalists would agree with me when I say that playing an ele during that preview event was hell. You know I waited a long time, and kept playing my ele hoping things would get better. Factions comes out and most of the skills are a joke and many issues that keep elementalists from really making an impact in the game still exist. From the start things have NOT gotten better for eles and I just about lost faith.

Sunday night when the preview ended, I was so upset with how badly my ele was crushed by hordes of dervish that I said screw it and started up a warrior that I now dedicate all my building time towards. Playing through as a warrior, I was almost upset at how easy things were compared to being an ele. Maybe not everyone agrees but this is personal experience, and yes I am upset on how eles have been treated throughout the course of the game. Its been this long and things have not improved for the ele crowd. So you know, I'm done. No more low armor and crappy survivability, its just easier to pick up the big fat hammer and mow down all the squishies. No matter what happens, warriors will always be the "tank" and im content with that. Now... to kill all those dervish and paragons. This preview event was the last nail in the coffin for this elementalist player.

Xpl0iter · Aug 01, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Seriously, if eles were not having issues, Ensign wouldn't have had spent so much time discussing how gimped these eles are in most of the situations.

Seriously, no offense since i am just a player who has no reputation, GW programmers need people like Ensign to work all over again and remake this class.

If this was just bull, so many threads for eles wouldnt have existed.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 01, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

As almost anyone of you i am worried about the nerfs because they can make a build or skill not very interesting, especially an elite, and in the worst case totally useless; for instance after the Offering of Blood nerf there are no more Mo/N boon protectors and OoB is now used only by Touch Rangers, whereas the boon prot is always Mo/Me with Mantra of Recall. Or do you know a non-toucher build that uses OoB?

I agree that the slogan is always evolve or die but it is also true that the elementalist needs a little helping hand here and there. These are my ideas:

1. If you cast an attunement on you and a foe drains/renders/shatters/interrupts/KD you then you need to wait 45 secs in order to recast them. So why not make the recharge time of all non-elite attunements between 5-20 secs mimicking Aura of restoration (5 secs recharge) or Divine boon for monks (1 sec recharge) ?

2. Monks have the elite Spell Breaker and the non-elite Spell shield, Assassins the elite Shadow form and Mesmers the stance Hex breaker. So why not make Mirror of ice "the next time an enemy uses any skill on you" instead of "the next time an enemy spell would deal damage to you" ? Its an elite with 10 secs recharge so it cannot be spammable, and in that way you do have real protection vs all professions. For balance ANET can remove the damage on the caster and add the line "50% failure chance with Water Magic 4 or less".

3. Armor. Rangers have in all their armors a +30 armor vs elements, so why not make all elementalist's armors have a +10 base armor vs elements and the extra features to be +health or +10 armor while enchanted/vs elements/vs physical damage ?

And lastly a petition. A lot of people here have mentioned Ensign thread/guide/post on elementalists but i havent found it within Guru, even using Google search. Can anyone of you post a link of the long acclaimed Ensign's insights ? (please i mean no sarcasm im serious, he has been quoted tons of times) Thank you in advance.

Hella Good · Aug 01, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Someone please give the eledramatics a chill pill. How did this start by Dervishes having plenty of chant removers and so supposedly putting Eles at a jeopardy, and ended up with the usual buff this skill, buff energy storage brag?